Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=47575
Page 1 of 1

Author:  dpetrzelka [ Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

My cousin wants to commission me to build for him a Taylor Grand Auditorium style guitar with a florentine cutaway and I'm looking for an accurate pattern or plans as a good starting point to which I can add a florentine cut away.

Are the plans from Georgia Luthier Supply the best or only thing going for a GA?
I love Ken's KMG templates - he doesnt currently have a GA - would a Martin M/J 0000 Style be a good starting point?

Others I should consider?

Any recommendations greatly appreciated.

thank you
Daniel

Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

What is the lower bout size you're after? We call our OLF-MJ a GA at 16 1/4"...

Author:  Woodie G [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

From the notes on guitar designs I use:

Quote:
The Grand Auditorium designation derives from Martin's early naming conventions, with 0 size guitars referred to as 'Concert', 00 as Grand Concert, 000 as Auditorium, and 0000 as Grand Auditorium, so 16" width lower bout, non-dreadnought guitars tend to fall into the Grand Auditorium bucket, despite very different body shapes (e.g., Martin J and Gibson J-185).

The Taylor and the OLF SJ & MJ are based on the Gibson narrow-waisted jumbo shape of their early archtop instruments repurposed in the mid-1920's for the original Nick Lucas Special and L-0, then later, the J-185, J-200, etc. Taylor tends to flatten the neck attachment area of their guitars, which gives a boxier, less graceful shape than the Gibson originals, but made neck fitting with their original butted neck design easier and cheaper. Both of the OLF jumbos retain the more graceful curves of the original Gibson shapes, and show the distinctive changing lower bout radius which Taylor forgoes, again for the sake of easier production.

The Martin Grand Auditorium shape is significantly different - it is the shape of the 16" width Martin F-size archtops, which had fuller lower bout lines and the distinctive Martin waist and upper bout found on the 14 fret body shapes that the manufacturer designed in the late 1920's and early 1930's to replace their 12 fret-to-body models. The Martin J and M sized guitars are identical in shape, with the J built to dreadnought depth and the M built to the shallower 000 depth. More recently, Martin and a range of other small manufacturers have acknowledged the popularity of the narrow waist jumbo design by borrowing the key characteristics for their own takes on these classic Gibson body shapes.

Most Grand Auditorium (referred to as GA or 0000 as well) tend to produce more balanced tone (versus the bass-accentuated dreadnought shape of similar width but wider waist), but with more volume than the smaller 000. The shape can be used to build 12, 13, or 14 fret-to-body variants without much more than sound hole and minor bracing and bridge plate movement, as both Martin and Gibson did with other body shapes.


Given that the Taylor is a somewhat generic take on the older, more graceful Gibson narrow waist jumbo shape, you might consider hewing closer to the Gibson originals with the small or medium jumbo OLF plans as suggested earlier in the thread. In reading the archives, a significant number of very nice instruments have been built to these plans once the bracing is adjusted a bit (the archives have good discussions on the changes that address the issue). I did send a note around to my small group of luthiers here and no one was familiar with any instruments built from Georgia Luthier Supply plans, but you could post a separate thread to query the much larger pool of builders here or on other sites re: those plans.

While we have not built to the MJ plan here, our SJ borrows the general shape of the OLF plans with mods to the bracing plan, etc. - it is a popular, well-received take on the design, with four under construction for various clients at present. You might spend a few minutes in the archives as I did - there is a wealth of information on the specifics of the OLF SJ and MJ plans, as well as other GA-sized options.

Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Thanks Woodie, that was pretty interesting.

BTW Daniel, the OLF plans have Venetian cutaways. You can still use the outlines and general bracing patterns though. I would recommend opening the angle of the X braces so that they do not butt against the UTB.

Author:  sdsollod [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

I'm working on one right now. I have a Taylor Grand Auditorium (324ce). I traced that body to make my mold and bending form and top and back template. To accomodate the depth of the cutaway I wanted, I had to do a little redesign of the bracing.

Author:  Quine [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

I've used Georgia Luthier's plans for the GS Mini before. Its a very nice set of plans. I don't know how exact they are to the original Taylor design but it looks good to my eye. (the back is very different than Taylor's....regular style bracing vs. Taylor's arched laminate)
I think if you're within 1/8" on the body dimensions its close enough that no one will notice

Author:  Rod True [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

I've always liked the Gibson J-185 shape and size and use that as my GA model.

Attachment:
LTP_6781(web).jpg

Author:  sdsollod [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

That's a beauty Rod!

Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

I never get tired of seeing that guitar, Rod! My favourite since I found this forum!

Alex

Author:  kencierp [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Appearance wise the Lowden "O" and the J185 are my favs -- they are very similar. Its my belief that the sound quality potential of the J185 is sacrificed a bit because of the short 24.75 scale.

Author:  Rod True [ Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

kencierp wrote:
Appearance wise the Lowden "O" and the J185 are my favs -- they are very similar. Its my belief that the sound quality potential of the J185 is sacrificed a bit because of the short 24.75 scale.


Agreed,

I tend to go longer on scale for my GA. That one is 25.6".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:  dpetrzelka [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Finally back in reliable Wifi zone - thank you all for the ideas.

I know the GA is more about fit for him, style second, and lastly the specific tone, so I'd like to stay very close to a 16" lower bout, and 20" body length. For scale length 25.5" or 25.34" (since I have the jig ready for positioning Martin bridges).

For the florentine cutaway, I'll be doing what I see as the more "modern" open cutaway like Steve Sollod did above, rather than the tighter Gibson style (which I personally love the look of - dying to build myself a CE-100 style small body). Slightly more open than what Taylor does for their Florentine - but likely a little tighter than what Joel Michaud does - love this as well, but it is too modern for what my cousin is looking for.

This is what I understand to be a comparison of a 0000 vs SJ. ( from this discussion: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-185979.html )

The end of the GA seems closer to the 0000 being fuller and flatter:
Image

Does the OLF MJ have the more full round/pointed lower bout of the the Gibson heritage (J185 etc) or is it fuller/flatter on the end like the Martin style? I love the idea of starting with the MJ if it would be the right foundation for this project.


Again, thank you all.

Author:  sdsollod [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Daniel,
Per your PM, I have provided a couple more shots of the one I'm working on.

Your best bet is to find a Taylor you can get the measurements from. I traced out the top. All you need is one side of the top and then use that side to complete the body shape and make sure that each side of the top is symetrical. You can use that as a template for the top and back, as well as templates to make a bending form for your bender and a mold. I also used paper wrapped around the side to get the measurement (template) for the sides. Note that to get the cutaway the depth I wanted, I had to adjust the upper transverse brace to accommodate the cutaway. Otherwise, I used typical scalloped x-bracing. If you do search on the OLF for "depth of floretine cutaway" you should find some additional discussion. If it works, here is the link to the previous thread, http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 01&t=46773

My intention was to not exactly copy the Taylor, but I do like the shape so I thought I could come close to that design.

Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Very nice Steve. I have been thinking about doing a radial purfling myself. What wood did you use? Love to see the finished guitar.

Author:  sdsollod [ Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Thanks joe. I used zebra for the radial purfling. I was going to use bocote because it also has nice grain lines, but it was too brittle. I had used zebra before. It really works well. I cut it in strips the width of the nonstick strip using my fret slot cutting jig as a miter box. I laid in the nonstick strip with the binding, pulled it out after the glue dried, and laid it in like abalone strips, tapping with the back end of a screwdriver. The zebra color will look killer next to the bubinga. Actually, I wasn't going to put it in the back, but I had an incident with the router, so I put it in to hide it. I'm really glad I did! It made it better. Sometimes accidents can be a good thing...

Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Thanks Steve. I just might try it !

Author:  dpetrzelka [ Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

Huge thanks to Steve, and the rest of you for the inspiration and insight.

I've started drawing up my own plans/design - just getting started on the silhouette. Very clearly inspired by Steve's work, and Taylor, but it feels good to draw it up from scratch.

Any chance one of you could provide waist and upper bout measurements from a traditional GA?

Image

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get into the bracing scheme.

This first Petrzelka Grand Auditroium will be Redwood on Goncalo Alves (Brazilian Tigerwood) the box just arrived from LMI.

Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Grand Auditorium w/ Florentine - most acc plans?

The OLF MJ is rounded On end. No flats. It's a beast too. Building several right now. As others noted, Georgia Luthier Supply sells plans for what you want. Another path is to call John Hall for a mold, and a bending form (assuming u use the fox bender). He will probably mark the brace locations. Etc. almost don't need plans that way.

Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/